Hello Ms. Ryan,

Through your research and numerous connections with this case, do you believe more sex-trade workers are using non-profit societies (such as PACE and WISH) moreso than the VPD pertaining to incidents they encounter while working? And do you feel these non-profit societies have a better working relationship with the VPD since the Pickton case?

Posted December 10, 2007 10:37 AM

Justice has not been served in the this trail because of the simple fact that Jury saw the victims as hookers and Junkies. How can you kill 6 people without showing the fact that is not premeditated? The others must get closure Pickton must answer for his crimes other who prey on streetpeople must also be brought to justice, the fact is this that not enough has ever been down to help these people in downtown Vancouver the reality is this it will only get worse because girls are still going missing. It is news today but not tommorow, If the light of the camera is there to screwtenize the situation things might get better.

Posted December 10, 2007 08:10 AM

Am I correct in my understanding that Mr. Picton has operated a slaughter house on his property for quite a few years? How was this possible as Port Coquitlam is within a meat inspection area which extends over all Greater Vancouver and the Fraser Valley and has been for many years? I believe he could not slaughter pigs or any other animals for other folk nor slaughter and sell his own pigs but could only slaughter his own animals for himself and his family. Why did no one report his apparent extensive operation to the health or agricultural authorities? I can't imagine how any of what has happened could have occured if Government Veterinarians, Canadian Food Inspection Agency Inspectors and Public Health Inspectors had been constantly visiting and inspecting his properties and buildings. Further, had these agencies been told of the operation of an illegal slaughter house they certainly would have shut it down. Then how would he have been able to dispose of animal remains, etc. at a local rendering facility? Why did no one ever report this operation to the appropriate authorities? Was it so inconspicuous that no one knew there was slaughtering going on there?

Posted December 9, 2007 10:36 PM

1) Why did Robert Pickton have 10 lawyers, and were they paid by Legal Aid?
2) How many lawyers will he have for the next trial with 20 charges?

Posted December 9, 2007 03:07 PM

If convicted do you think Picton will try to make a deal with the Crown similar to the deal Clifford Olsen(sp?) made? He has claimed to have killed 49 women. Many family members of missing women are waiting for answers. I believe it is now illegal to make such a deal however could he reveal the full extent of his crimes to negotiate a lesser sentence or to serve his time in a facility with better conditions?

Posted December 8, 2007 03:10 AM

Q| So, if I can remember my high school law classes well enough, being an accessory after the fact carries the same penalty as the crime itself. The alleged butchering of a body would be enough to be considered an accessory after the fact, would it not?

Is there really much doubt of a guilty verdict given that the seemingly overwhelming evidence that he was at least in some way complicit?

A|Jeff,
You may be right, however, it's not something the jury can consider.

When the judge made his charge to the jury he didn't give them the option of "accessory after the fact." That would mean a "parties charge" to the jury—ie, that Pickton was 'party to the crime' with others. Mr. Justice James Williams didn't go that route.

As a result, accessory after the fact, or aiding and abetting the crime are not among the verdicts the jury can consider.

Instead, the only verdicts the jury can consider are guilty or not guilty of first degree murder, second degree murder, or manslaughter.

Posted December 7, 2007 05:47 PM

Q| Has the VPD and the RCMP done anything to find out why they took so long to investigate the pig farm, despite there being so many women who went missing. Not to mention the seeming endless tips they were given. As well as the suspicious activity on the farm. Who's investigating the investigators?

A|Teresa,

When we've spoken to members of the Missing Women's Task Force about this, their response is that it's easy to criticize now in hindsight, with the information we have at this point in time.

They suggest that at the time, given the transient nature of sex trade workers and a lack of bodies, there was a nothing to point them to the possibility of a serial killer.

Of course, that's not altogether true. There were people who were questioning that. Kim Rossmo, for instance: a Vancouver police officer who in 1998 wanted to issue a public warning about the possibility of a serial killer. Others who were higher up in the force disagreed, and ultimately he was let go. (He sued for the force for wrongful dismissal, but lost the suit).

And Lindsay Kines, a reporter at the Vancouver Sun, raised the alarm...ultimately he and fellow reporters Kim Bolan and Lori Culbert did a seven part series in 2001, laying out the issues within the force and showing that the number of women missing from the Downtown Eastside was much more than police recognized.

This is why the families, and many police critics, are calling for a public inquiry into the whole missing women's case —to try to determine what went wrong.

Was it simply because VPD and the RCMP didn't communicate with each other? Was it because these women simply weren't a high priority? Or are police right when they say it's easy to criticize in hindsight?

There are many who say only a full, public inquiry into those questions will be able to get at the truth.

Posted December 7, 2007 03:30 PM

Q|MS RYAN:
What is the name of the person who notified the police about the Picton Farm, 2 years before the police took any action?

Where would I find this story in your site

A|Michael,
There are a few people who mentioned the Pickton farm to police before the task force was established, eventually leading them to the farm in 2002.

The first is Wayne Leng, a friend of missing woman Sarah De Vries. Sarah disappeared in April 1998 and is now one of the women Pickton is accused of killing in an eventual second trial.

Wayne often walked the streets of the downtown eastside looking for her. He kept hearing rumours about a farm out in Port Coquitlam in the late 90's, and passed that on to police.

Since then Wayne has been instrumental in keeping the tributes to the missing women alive. Check out his website at www.missingpeople.net

Bill Hiscox also spoke to police. He was an employee of the Pickton brothers in 1998. His stepsister used to clean Pickton's trailer, and came across some women's id and belongings. She was too nervous to go to police, but Bill felt this might have something to do with the missing women.

He phoned Wayne Leng and mentioned the farm. That message was passed on to police, who did come to speak directly to him.

Hiscox took two officers out to Port Coquitlam and showed them the farm. He says they told him police couldn't go in based on assumptions—something Hiscox found very frustrating. Again, it went nowhere.

And finally, Marnie Frey's stepmother Lynn Frey also told police about the farm. She was searching the streets for Marnie in late 1997, and like others, was hearing stories about women disappearing at a pig farm in Port Coquitlam.

At one point Pickton was placed under surveillance, but it went nowhere.

All three people are attending the final days of the trial, awaiting the verdict.

It is one of the great frustrations for the families here, as five of the six victims went missing in 1999 or later. There is a feeling is police had responded more to those early tips their loved ones might still be alive.

Of course, that is hindsight which as we know, is always 20-20. But it is one of the reasons critics say there must be a public inquiry into how the whole missing women's case was handled.

Posted December 5, 2007 08:29 PM

Q|Can you tell me if the jurors or anyone else connected to deciding the fate of Pickton are prevented/restricted from profiting from this event or are we going to turn this into another mini-series and plethora of reading materials like our friends down south often do?

A|Steve,

You know, I'm not completely sure on this one and the research I've done hasn't given me much insight.

I know that jurors aren't allowed to talk about what went on during deliberations. Anything said in the jury room is sacred. And I would think if one of them was going to write a book, that would be what publishers are interested in—the so-called "inside scoop".

As for lawyers—well, the defence is bound by lawyer/client privilege and it would be a bit unseemly for the crown.

Journalists are not bound by such restrictions, although we have nothing to do with deciding his fate, which was the parameter of your question.

Well-known investigative journalist Stevie Cameron already has one book published, and another will be released once the trial is completed.

It is somewhat inevitable some more in depth looks at the case will be produced—think of the Paul Bernardo/Karla Homolka case. There are at least six books and one movie that came from that, and I'm sure there are ones I've forgotten.

Posted December 5, 2007 07:30 PM

Q| I think Donna Turko nailed it. My looming concern is about Dave Picton and Dinah. Why were they not compelled to testify?

A|Hi Lisa,

It's an excellent question, but one without any firm answer.

Think about this though. Neither Dave nor Dinah has ever agreed to be formally interviewed by police —they have absolutely refused. These are not co-operative witnesses.

Even if the crown did call them to the stand as hostile witnesses, it might be questionable how much they would actually say while on the stand. It's like the old saying goes—you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

You could subpoena Dave Pickton to the stand, but you can't make him co-operate.

That said, their presence has certainly been felt at this trial. They are probably the two people most talked about besides Pickton himself.

It would be interesting to know how their absence is affecting the jury —but it's one of those things we'll never know for sure, as we can't ask the jury what went on during deliberations.

Posted December 5, 2007 04:13 PM

Q| Clearly this has to have been traumatic for the jurors. Post-traumatic stress must be a possibility.

Is it really true that the confidentiality rules prevent them seeking counselling even from medical professionals or spiritual counsellors who are bound by their own confidentiality rules?

A|Hi Ron,

Jurors can certainly talk with medical professionals about the impact the evidence had on them while they were listening to it in the courtroom, and about how difficult the whole situation might have been for them.

But according to Dr. Gordon Rose in the psychology department at Simon Fraser University, there are limits.

Rose has done a great deal of work studying juries —particularly the stress of not being able to talk about what went on during deliberations.

That's where the line is. Anything that goes on inside the jury room itself is sacred.

According to Dr. Rose "a lot of jurors have indicated that they experience stress as a result of not being able to talk with anybody about what they've experienced. And the law goes so far as to prohibit people from talking to counsellors or mental health professionals about what happened. They can talk about the effects on themselves, but they can't talk about what caused them to have those feelings"

In other words —if in the jury room these jurors had to look again and again at the photos of the women's remains, they wouldn't be able to talk to a professional counsellor about it because of the sanctity of the jury room.

It does seem harsh in some ways, given as you say the confidentiality rules such professional counsellors have to adhere to, but that is apparently the law.

Posted December 5, 2007 02:45 PM

Q| Is there a chance that others may be implicated in these crimes?

A|That's a question others have wondered about. You might want to have a look at some of the answers below.

Certainly the defence dealt with the suggestion others might be implicated.

They said the farm is such a busy place, any number of people might be involved.

Among the key figures they named — Dave Pickton, the younger brother of the accused; Dinah Taylor — a close friend who allegedly threatened one of the victims; Pat Cassanova — a friend and fellow butcher who was often on the farm.

The judge also addressed the issue in his charge to the jury, telling them they didn't need to believe Pickton acted alone in order to find him guilty of first degree murder...and that they didn't even need to know who the others are in order to convict Pickton.

Posted December 5, 2007 10:46 AM

Ryan, not so much a question as a comment. As a "survivior" of the sex trade world, I only worked in Edmonton, when I went to Vancouver to work, I was scared to death of those strolls, and I am so glad I listened to my instinct, and chose to panhandle instead.

Looking at the dates when I would have worked Vancouver, I could have encountered Pickton myself. I have now been "square" 15 years and have pulled my life together, and actually now work in the child welfare feild. My heart, my thoughts, and prayers go out to each and every family member involved, as we have all lost something.

I eaagerly sit and wait for the jury to come back, after many many prayers for God to be with the jurors to help them make the right decision, and to be with them as they deal with all of the evidence they have had to endure, which will now be with them for the rest of their lives, my thoughts and prayers are also with the media as they take in all of this information which will never leave their minds, and it deffinatly takes it toll on a person. Some ex-sex trade workers chose to be advocates for the men, women, and children still on the streets, I have chosen the "simple" life to honor my fallen sisters. I want to thank you for your coverage in this horrific story, your compasison shines through your writing, and how you answer questions.

I will keep my thoughts and views of Pickton to myself, as I am sure they are similar to most Canadians... and humans.

I will keep putting my energy into prayers and thoughts for the families involved who have lost loved ones, and to the families who have never found their loved ones.

So once again thank you for your thoughtful reporting, and question answering

Posted December 5, 2007 10:24 AM

Q| How much did this trial cost the public? Could the money not have been better used to create support housing for sextrade workers?

A| Hi Tom,

Reporters have been asking the "how much is this costing" question for months now, and we can't get an answer.

In fact, we've been told if it did become public how much the trial cost, it might affect the second trial in terms of the attitude of potential jurors.

Recent estimates put the trial in the tens of millions.

As for whether that money could be spent better...well, justice is an expensive matter.

And the fact is, Robert William Pickton is innocent until proven guilty.

This trial has raised many questions for many people — how well did police handle this matter; are others involved; should others have been pursued as suspects; does Pickton have the mental capacity to pull this off?

That said, there are many who work with sex trade workers who hope the attention to the horrific violence these women endured will do some good; that maybe it will push the public and the politicians to make these women more of a priority than they have been in the past.

Posted December 4, 2007 12:34 PM

Q| In your opinion is Willie Pickton evil or easily influeced by someone or is he just retarded?

A| Nanette,

Those are strong characterizations, and not ones I feel comfortable making any conclusions about.

But I can tell you about the picture painted by both crown and defence. They are very different portraits of the same man.

The crown believes Pickton is a calculating, cold serial killer — one who had a system in terms of killing the women.

They talked about how he would use friends such as Dinah Taylor or Lynn Ellingsen to help lure women to the farm.

In the crown's scenario, which was backed up by some witness testimony, Pickton would sometimes drive to the downtown eastside with with Taylor or Ellingsen in his truck, and they would assure the sex trade workers that all three of them would go back to the farm together.

The crown also points to how his mood changed during the interrogation, from someone who denied knowing anything, to then calling himself the head honcho, and finally playing with police — his feet up on the table — saying he wanted to "do 50 women," but only made it to 49 because he got sloppy.

The defence, on the other hand, uses words like "feeble-minded," "weak-minded," and "a questionable mental capacity" to describe their client.

They introduced his school records where he failed grade two and then went into special classes until grade nine, when he left school.

They encouraged many witnesses to describe him in positive terms, which included kind, generous, shy, and also mentally slow and subservient around his brother Dave.

And they introduced IQ records which put him in the "low normal" category.

It has been impossible to get any sort of gauge of Pickton from the courtroom. Every day he sits quietly, almost immobile, with very little reaction to all the things that are being said about him.

Posted December 4, 2007 05:33 AM

Q| Has the disappearance of women stopped since Robert Pickton has been jailed? There hasn't been much in the news about whether or not disappearances are continuing to happen now that an arrest has been made and a trial in progress.

A| The disappearances haven't stopped, although it's hard to get a handle on how many women have disappeared in the last five and a half years since Pickton has been in custody.

If you go to the community centres in Vancouver's downtown eastside the community message boards are plastered with posters showing pictures of missing women, and pleas from loved ones for information.

The people who work in the neighborhood do say there's a different attitude since the case of the missing women was acknowledged. Vancouver city police now has a five person missing persons unit, which boasts exceptional success rates; and the women themselves are more diligent about reporting friends they haven't seen.

That said, there may be a bit of a feeling that with "Pickton off the streets", sex trade workers are safer. That's simply not true. The violence levels have not changed. In fact, some might argue they've escalated. One social worker told me a story of a woman who went with two men in a car, was driven to an abandoned parking lot, violently assaulted, and then thrown from the car and run over. Incredibly she survived - physically, at least.

Posted December 3, 2007 07:30 PM

Q| I been reading today that what ever it goes, they sound rather unsure and unwilling to prosecute Mr. Pickton for the rest of the charges he faces. I guess my question is:
How do you think that will go down to the Families involved?
Has the Queen really thought this through, how this question even come up?

I miss Freestyle

A| Kevin, the lack of a second trial is certainly a concern for many of the family members.

That's why some of the relatives of the victims named in the second trial are here now. Lorianne Ellis — the sister in law of Cara Ellis — told me she's here for this verdict because she fears there won't be a second trial.

However, the crown has not suggested any such thing.

Of course there is speculation.

After all, if Pickton is convicted in this extremely expensive trial, is a second trial absolutely necessary? I'm sure the families of those victims would say yes.

And then there's the chance of Pickton perhaps deciding to plead on the second twenty if he's convicted here.

If he's not convicted in this trial — then certainly I would expect there to be greater pressure for a second.

The bottom line is there is a court date set in January for the lawyers and judge to discuss the timing of the second trial. So at this point, it seems it will go ahead.

Posted December 3, 2007 03:10 PM

Q| Like the previous questioner, I'm baffled as to why Dave Picton was not called to testify. Did the police ever question him in connection with the 'missing women' case?

Surely, given the timeframe and extent of events, he would be on the scene at some time.

A| Hi Tony,

Yes, Dave Pickton is an interesting character. Some of the evidence the defence raised that points to him includes restraints, pills, sex toys and 22 calibre rifle found in his bedroom in the farmhouse on the farm.

Then there's his sexual assault conviction in the early 90's, and police testimony about a woman who alleged he tied her to the bed and violently sexually assaulted her. That didn't go to court because she was apparently too frightened to testify.

And there is all the evidence from various acquaintances about how Robert William Pickton was subservient to his younger brother Dave. As one witness put it: "Dave was the master and Willie was the slave."

Police have tried repeatedly to do a formal interview with Dave. He has refused. He also refuses to come to court to be present for any of the trial. There are two seats in the courtroom reserved for Pickton's family: his brother, and his sister Linda who hasn't lived on the farm since she was a young teenager. Those seats have sat empty for the entire trial.

Posted December 3, 2007 10:02 AM

Q| Could you explain why Dinah Taylor and Dave Pickton have not been called on to testify? It seems to me that they are two very important missing pieces from this puzzle. Is there a possibility that they will be charged at a later time?

A| Christelle, you raise a question everyone out here has been asking. In fact, it's the subject of the piece I'm doing for The World at Six tonight (Monday, Dec.3). I wonder, as the jury considers the case, if they aren't wondering the same thing.

Unfortunately, there isn't a good answer.

The defence argues it was the crown's responsibility to call Dave and Dinah, as the burden of proof is always on the crown to prove the case.

The crown chose not to — why not?

Because they wouldn't have been helpful to the case?

Because they wouldn't co-operate?

Good questions...but not somewhere the crown is willing to go in conversations with the media.

We have also pursued Dave and Dinah repeatedly, and though we caught Dinah briefly one day, she wasn't willing to talk very much. Dave flat out refuses to talk with us.

Dinah Taylor was actually arrested in connection with the murders days before Pickton, but was never charged.

As for Dave Pickton, one police officer testified he is still considered a 'potential suspect' in the case, but backtracked a day later to the term "person of interest".

Police are still investigating the case, so it is possible charges against others may be laid.

Posted December 3, 2007 08:44 AM

Q| I have to wonder, even if all these other people did not assist in some way or other with the murders, did they not know anything about what was happening?? Did they never miss any of these women?

It strikes me as unlikely that one person could hide so many murders in this situation.

What's the penalty for not speaking up when you suspect something?

A| Katie, the big question of 'who knew what when' has dominated the trial.

Crown witness Lynn Ellingsen claims she saw Pickton butchering the body of a woman in his slaughterhouse on March 20, 1999. But she didn't actually share that story until after Pickton was arrested in 2002.

Scott Chubb told police in 2002 that Pickton had talked to him about killing women with a syringe full of windshield wiper fluid. He claims that conversation took place in the summer of 1999 or 2000, he wasn't sure which.

Andrew Bellwood told police in 2002 that Pickton had told him he killed prostitutes, and proceeded to mime how he killed them by handcuffing them and strangling them with a wire hidden under his mattress. He says that conversation took place in March, 1999.

So, that leads us to the second part of your question: in terms of penalty for not speaking up if you suspect a crime.

I contacted our CBC lawyers to get an answer. Here's what they replied:

It is not a crime to fail to inform the police about a crime that somebody is aware of, as long as that person was not involved. There are a variety of offences for people involved:

Aid or Abet
It is an offence to commit a crime or to aid or abet (encourage). This means "to do or omit to do anything for the purpose of aiding any person to commit it" or "abets any person in committing it".

Where two or more persons form an intention in common to carry out an unlawful purpose and to assist each other therein and any one of them, in carrying out the common purpose, commits an offence, each of them who knew or ought to have known that the commission of the offence would be a probable conserquence of carrying out the common purpose is a party to that offence.

Counselling an offence — when the person counselled commits that offence.

Accessory after the fact — is a person who, knowning that a person has been a party to the offence, receives, comforts or asists that person for the purpose of enabling that person to escape.

So that's the legal answer. So there is no legal penality — but one would expect a guilty conscience.

Posted December 2, 2007 10:36 AM

Q| There was a Police trailer on Picton's property and they got it out of there fast before the investigation started. Why was the trailer on Pictons property? It has been reported that his barn was a great party place. Where the Police enjoying these parties? I do not believe that Picton did all of these murders, who else is involved? How do we know if the Taser may have been involved?

A| I think the barn you're thinking of is called "Piggy's Palace" and was, in fact, a well-known party place in Port Coquitlam. However, it wasn't on 953 Dominion Rd, where the main investigation took place. It was on Dave Pickton's property around the corner on Burn's Road.

Certainly many people partied there, including the mayor of Port Coqiutlam at one point, and some of the proceeds went to charities.

The police did search the Burn's Road property and found a great deal of women's clothing in cars, but no real forensic evidence.

Your belief that others were involved in the murders is a common one. Even Mr. Justice James Williams told the jury in his charge that they did NOT have to believe Pickton acted alone in order to find him guilty of first degree murder; even if they didn't know who the "others" might be.

The defence has raised two key people as alternate suspects: brother Dave Pickton and Pickton's friend Dinah Taylor. They are certainly interesting characters in the context of the case.

The defence told the jury about Dave Pickton's past conviction for sexual assault, And one police officer testified they'd had a complaint from a woman who said Dave tied her to his bed and violently sexually assaulted her. The officer explained the complaint never went to court because the woman was too afraid.

The jury heard a great deal about Dinah Taylor — from how she'd threatened one of the victims, Andrea Joesbury, to an alleged conversation she had with Pickton days before his arrest where she promised him she'd take responsibility for what she'd done. Many of the women's belongings found in Pickton's trailer were found in a bag containing Dinah's things...and their makeup had her DNA on it too.

Neither Dave nor Dinah was ever called to testify.

There was no police trailer on the Pickton property prior to the investigation. There were two trailers — one in which Pickton lived; the other, usually called the 'mobile home' which was lived in by a variety of Pickton's friends who came to stay with him.

As for a Taser, well, there has never been any evidence of such. And since most of the murders occurred before Tasers were used in Canada, I'm not sure it's relevant in this case.

Posted December 1, 2007 06:10 AM