Wilson-Raybould vs. Butts: Two versions of the SNC-Lavalin affair

It was hardly surprising that Gerald Butts, the former principal secretary for Prime Minister Justin Trudeau,would offer a narrative about the SNC-Lavalin affair that conflicted with the one delivered last week by Jody Wilson-Raybould.

Wilson-Raybould had testified before the Commons justice committee that when she was attorney general she had been pressured inappropriately by senior government officials to step in and resolve the corruption and fraud case against SNC-Lavalin Group Inc. If convicted, the engineering giant could be blocked from competing for federal government contracts for a decade, which many Liberals warn could potentially affect thousands of jobs.

In his appearance at the committee on Wednesday, Butts denied the key claimsmade by Wilson-Raybould, butinsisted he did not want to "cast aspersions" or suggest that anyone is being "deliberately misleading."

"I do believe that it is possible for people to draw different conclusions from the same experiences," he said.

Here are some of those different conclusions arrived at byButts and Wilson-Raybould regarding the ongoing scandal.

Under pressure?

What Wilson-Raybould said:

SNC-Lavalinhad hopeditsfraudand corruption chargescould be resolved with what's known as a deferred prosecution agreement (DPA), whichwould spare the company a trialand possible criminal conviction.

WATCH: Two versions of events in the SNC-Lavalin affair

Two versions of SNC-Lavalin affair

5 years ago

Duration 13:42

Compare how Gerald Butts and Jody Wilson-Raybould describe the events surrounding the SNC-Lavalin affair during testimony at the Commons committee. Wilson-Raybould testified on Feb. 27 and Butts spoke on March 6.

But thePublic Prosecution Service of Canada had determined SNCdidn't meet the criteria for a DPA. As attorney general, Wilson-Raybould did have the power to intervene on that file and overrule thePPSC, but she said she had decided against it.

Despite her decision, she saidthatfor four months, fromSeptemberto December2018, she "experienced a consistent and sustained effort"by 11 senior government officials, including Butts and the prime minister, to pressure her to intervene in the case.

She said this included approximately 10 phone calls and 10 meetings specifically about SNC-Lavalin.

What Butts said:

"I am firmly convinced that nothing happened here beyond the normal operations of government," Butts told the Commons justice committee.

Butts said he was "100 per cent" certain there was no co-ordinatedeffort in the Prime Minister's Office to get Wilson-Raybould to change her mind on the SNC-Lavalin file and that he would know if somethinglike that had beengoing on.

He also raised the question of "what exactly constitutes pressure."

Butts said according to Wilson-Raybould, the 20 contacts she had over four months on this file boils down to twomeetings and twophone calls per month "on an issue that could cost a minimum of 9,000 jobs."

"I think that 20 points of contact over four months is not a lot of contact," he said.

Defining 'final' decision

WhatWilson-Raybouldsaid:

Wilson-Raybouldtold thecommittee that onSept. 16,2018, she made her final decisionthat she would not overrule the director ofpublic prosecutions on SNCand "was notgoing to change her mind."

What Butts said:

Butts said he didn't believe it was possible for her to have had made a finaldecision on the matter since, according to briefings he'd received, the attorney general was obliged to bring in "fresheyes" every time new evidence arose, up until a verdict on the case is rendered.

The Chteau Laurier meeting

WhatWilson-Raybouldsaid:

Wilson-Raybouldtestified that she had requested a meeting with Buttsto talk about a number of issues including "the barrage of people hounding" her and her staff about the SNC-Lavalin file. She said that toward the end of the Dec. 5 meeting, she told himshe"needed everybody to stop talking" to herabout SNC,that she had made up hermind and that further engagements would beinappropriate.

Butts stressed that she "needed to find a solution" on the SNC-Lavalin file, she said.

They also spoke about theHarper government's 2006 Director of Public Prosecutions Act, which established the Public ProsecutionService of Canada in an effort to prevent political interference in the prosecution of federal offences.

According toWilson-Raybould's account, Butts said the statute was passed by Harperand that he doesn't like the law.

She responded: "That is the law that we have."

What Butts said:

Butts said he did not recallWilson-Raybouldsaying anythingabout anyone pressuringher inappropriately.

He said the SNC-Lavalin filecame up briefly at the end of their two-hour meeting and that Wilson-Raybouldasked him if he had an opinionon it.

He said he pointed out that he had no expertise inthe matter, and thatthey spokebriefly about the idea of asking a retired Supreme Court chief justice for advice.

He said the "Harper" comment referred to the PPSCnot beingvery old, having been brought into being during the Harper years. He said that comment was a "chronological point, not a political one."

From his perspective, the meeting was the best discussion they'd had in a while and "there wasnothing remotely negative about the exchange."

Meeting with Wilson-Raybould's chief of staff

What Wilson-Raybould said:

At the hearing, Wilson-Raybould readfrom what she said was a text conversationbetween herself and her chief of staff, Jessica Prince, on Dec. 18. The exchange followed ameeting Prince had with Butts andKatie Telford, Trudeau's chief of staff.

According to Wilson-Raybould, Prince textedherthat Butts and Telfordwanted externalcounsel, preferably a former Supreme Court justice, to give Wilson-Raybould an opinion on whether she could review her SNC decision.

Wilson-Raybould said Prince told them that would be interference. Butts is said to haveresponded: "Jess, there is no solution here that does not involve some interference."

What Butts said:

"I remember that meeting very, very differently than the account given last week," Butts testified.

Prince saidWilson-Rayboulddidn't want to consider "political factors" in theSNC-Lavalindecision, and was worried about the appearance of political interference, Butts told the committee.

Butts said he told Prince that it was ultimately Wilson-Raybould's decision, but he also made it clear that the jobs of 9,000 people are not a political issue but a "very real public policy issue."

He denied he said there was "no solution here that does not involve some interference,"in partbecausethe word "solution" is not one he would have used in this context.

Butts told the committee he did say that he couldn't see how having someone like former Supreme Court justiceBeverleyMcLachlingiveWilson-Raybouldadvice would constitute political interference.

Shuffled out of attorney general role

WhatWilson-Raybouldsaid:

Wilson-Raybouldtestified shereceived a call from the prime minister on Jan. 7 to inform her she was being shuffled out of her role as justice minister and attorney general. She told him she thoughtthe reason had to do withthe SNC matter, but Trudeaudenied this.

What Butts said:

Butts said the shuffle had "absolutely nothing to do with the SNC-Lavalin" issue and was necessitated after Scott Brisonannouncedthat hewas going to step down asTreasury Board president. Butts also insisted that if Brisonhad not resigned,Wilson-Raybouldwould be justice minister today.

It was decided that the best replacement forBrison,a minister from Nova Scotia, would be Jane Philpott, who at that time was the Indigenous services minister.

Wilson-Raybould, a member of theWe Wai Kai Nation in B.C.,would be one of the very few members of caucus who could replace Philpott in a ministry that was very important to the prime minister, Butts said.

When notified byTrudeauabout her shuffle,Wilson-Raybouldsaid she was a little bit shocked because being attorney general was her dream job Indigenous services minister was not, Butts said. She also said that she believed she was being shuffled out for "other reasons,"butTrudeaudenied this, Butts told the committee.

Butts said Wilson-Raybouldturned down the offer, explainingthat shehad spent her life opposed to the Indian Actand couldn't be in charge of the programs administered under its authority. Instead, she was moved to the Veterans Affairs post.

On Feb. 12, less than a week after the Globe and Mail published astory that quoted anonymous sources who saidTrudeau's office tried to pressure Wilson-Raybould to intervene in the SNC-Lavalin case, she resigned from Veterans Affairs.