Why Joly says she'll come to the table with Russia, China even if she doesn't like it

International affairs are shifting like "tectonic plates," says Foreign Affairs Minister Mlanie Joly, and Canada must show up at "every single" international table to counterbalance aggressive actors even if she doesn't want to sit beside them.

"I don't feel like sitting next to [Russian Foreign Minister Sergey] Lavrov, actually,"Joly said in an interview with CBC Radio's The House. But such meetings can offeropportunitiesto isolate Russia internationally and counter Russian propaganda, she said.

Joly pointed to an international meeting this summer where G7 foreign ministers refused to have their picture taken with Lavrov, who then exited the summit early.

CBC News: The House27:53Foreign Minister Mlanie Joly on Canadas shifting foreign policy

Foreign Affairs Minister Mlanie Joly sits down with host Catherine Cullen to discuss Canadas foreign policy approach, before former diplomat Michael Small and the Business Council of Canadas Goldy Hyder discuss whether Canada is really ready to embrace friendshoring.

"He left the meeting because he's reading the writing on the wall," she said.

G20 leaders will gather in Indonesia again next month. Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has said thatCanada will take part in the gathering, even if Russian President Vladimir Putin also attends.

Joly says Canada needs to engage with China

One year after being appointed minister of foreign affairs, Joly in a wide-ranging interview with The House described her approach to the file as "pragmatic" and emphasized the need to engage in dialogue with all countries.

"I don't believe in the empty chair strategy," she said. "When Canada is not engaged in a dialogue, first, it's not helpful for our own peace and stability. And second, we lose influence in the world because the other G7 countries are actually talking to these countries."

That philosophy applies to China, said Joly, who has said beforethat she wants to "re-establish ties" with Beijing.

Canada-China relations tanked between 2019-2021, as the countries engaged in a diplomatic battle over China's detainment of Canadians Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig a provocation broadly viewed as an act of retaliation for the arrest of Meng Wanzhou in Vancouver as the United States sought her extradition.

Joly said she's concerned by China's continuingdisplay of "aggressive" behaviour in the Taiwan Straitbut stressed that Canada can't turn its back on all discussions with the superpower.

"At the same time, we need to engage with them on climate change, and on health and on denuclearization, because these are also existential threats that we're facing, as a country and as a world," she said.

But Joly's comments camejust after Industry MinisterFranois-Philippe Champagne spokeof "decoupling" from China.

"People want to trade with people who, really, share the same values," he said during a recent visit to Washington D.C.

Joly suggested the two ideas aren't out of stepbecause Canadian businesses should be aware of the risks of doing business with China, and should explore opportunities to diversify their trading partnerships.

The Conservatives say the Liberals have sown confusion overtheir stance on China byinitially seeking deeper trade ties with Beijing andtaking years to produce a formal China policy.

"We've had so many iterations of what the government's China policy is, it's even caused confusion amongst our allies," said Conservative foreign affairs critic Michael Chong in an interview this week.

The government's Indo-Pacific strategy, which will includeChina, is expected before the end of the year.

Earlier this week, Canadian MPs voted unanimously to endorse a report that suggests Canada should offer asylum to Uyghursandother ethnic minorities in Chinafacing "an ongoing genocide."

The United States has voiced grave concerns about "the ongoing genocide and crimes against humanity" and a report released this summer by the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights warned that China's behaviour "may constitute international crimes, in particular crimes against humanity."

China has repeatedly denied the allegation and Joly stopped short of calling the Uyghurs' situationa "genocide." She said Canada will push Chinaand other countriesto "shed light" on what's happening to Uyghurs. She also said her governmentwill support a bill that would prevent the purchase of goods suspected of being produced by forced labour in the region.

'I don't believe in doctrine:' Joly

The intersection of human rights, tradeand diplomatic relations was highlighted in a speech byDeputy Prime Minister Chrystia Freelandin Washington, D.C. earlier this month.

Freeland said that Russia's invasion of Ukraine signaled the end of a three-decade period in geopolitics whenwestern nations believed that robust trade and economic prosperity would help democracy flourish in the rest of the world.

Widely touted as the "Freeland doctrine," the speech stressed the need for closer ties between democratic countries andthe creation of supply chains that don't rely on countries with dissimilar values.

Asked how she would define the "Joly doctrine" of foreign affairs, the minister rejected the question.

"I don't believe in doctrine. I don't think it's time for doctrine," she said.

"I think people are losing their lives right now in Ukraine, fighting for their freedom. I think we need to show up."