Carbine rifles not a priority for RCMP in 2009, Moncton Mounties shooting trial hears

Arming front-lineRCMPofficers with carbine rifles was not a priority in 2009, a retired deputy commissionertestified Friday at the national police force's Labour Codetrial in connection with the 2014 shooting deaths of three Moncton Mounties and wounding of two others.

TheRCMPis charged with violating four provisions of the Canada Labour Codeby allegedly failing to provide members with appropriate use-of-force equipmentand trainingfor responding to an active threat or active shooting event, and failing to ensurethe health and safety of every person employed by the force.

Although the RCMPwas looking into carbines in 2009, Darrell Madillacknowledged under cross-examination by the Crown the force was more focused on polices on use of force andTasers and similar weapons after the 2007 Taser death of RobertDziekaskiat the Vancouver airport.

"You had the opportunity to put [carbines] on the front burner, but you did not," prosecutor Paul Adams said.

"We had to build a case," replied Madill. The public backlash over Tasers following Dziekaski'sdeath illustrated the need for demonstrating due diligence, he said.

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The risk of the force losingTasersin the fallout made collecting data aboutTaseruse a high priority, saidMadill.

"How many more officers would have to be killed before [carbines] became a top priority?" grilled Adams.

He noted nine of the last 10 officers murdered were killed by long guns.In theMonctonshootings,"we had three families destroyed," he said.

Adams asked whether it was fair to say theRCMPknew frontline officers were facing injury and death without being properly equipped.

Madill, whose job was operational policy, said he had established there was a firearms gap and a need,but weapons were not his responsibility.

If he had thought buying a carbine could save a life, or a family from hardship, he would have bought one himself, he said.

When he retired in January 2011, he understood there was a carbine plan in place, he added. Heexpected approval to be coming within months.

Carbines high-powered,short-barrelledrifles that havea longer and more accurate rangethan a pistol or shotgun were approved in September 2011, but therollouttook time, the trial has heard.

Several Crown witnesses have testified carbines could have made a difference in JustinBourque'sdeadly shooting rampage on June 4, 2014.

Bourquewas armed with anM305.308 semi-automatic rifle and aMossberg500 12-gauge shotgun when he fatally shot constablesDouglasLarche, DaveRoss, andFabriceGevaudan, and wounded constablesDarleneGoguenand EricDubois.

The responding officers were equipped only with pistols and shotguns. No carbines were available to them that night, the trial has heard.

Complex process

Earlier Friday, under direct examination by the defence, Madillsaidthe RCMPcouldn't just decide to roll out carbines. The forcehad to work out budget issues with its partners the federal government, provinces and territories.

Carbine costs involved not only procurement but also deployment, training, ammunition and vehicle design, he said. Unilaterally rolling out a new weapon "would not have been seen as a positive step in our relationship."

The force also had to ensure the public was comfortable with officers being armed with the semi-automatic weapons, said Madill.The more force used by police, the more the public fears the police, he said.

2010 report disappointing

Criminologist Darryl Davies was commissioned in 2009 to study carbines, but Madill said he wasdisappointed with the report, filed in 2010.

There was no risk assessment andno public policy, saidMadill.

"He didn't have the 'why'."

We gained nothing that would allow us to present an unbiased justified case to our partners.- DarrellMadill,retired RCMP deputy commissioner

Davies "either didn't understand or couldn't grasp what we were trying to accomplish."

Madillsaid he was hoping for a needs assessment and didn't feel he could take the report to his superiors as proof carbines were necessary.

"We gained nothing that would allow us to present an unbiased justified case to our partners."

So another researcher was hired, he said.

"I think we all knew it was coming."

At the time, the RCMP was also renegotiating its policing contract with provinces and territories, which was set to expire in 2012, said Madill.

Reviewing the 1992 agreement was complex, he said. The expectations of provinces and territories were much higher after 20 years.

Justin Bourque caused deaths, not RCMP

The trial also heard the defence's opening statementfrom Ian Carter on Friday,after the Crown called its last witness on May 17.

Carter reminded the court theRCMP is not charged with causing the deaths of the three Moncton Mounties.

It was JustinBourquewho was picking off police.

Themain issues at this trial are carbine weapons and training, said Carter.

He said the evidence will show the force exercised due diligence in acquiring carbines. The RCMP needed to carefully study the weapons that are designed to be lethal before arming its officers with them, said Carter.

Not all carbines are the same, he said, citing the different barrel lengths and ammunition as examples. And it can be difficult to purchase weapons and accessories, with many parts coming from the United States, he said.

During closing arguments, the defence will providea timeline of the development of the carbinerollout, said Carter

The defence also intends to prove theRCMP'straining program was of high quality, he said.

No individual RCMP manager or supervisor is named in the charges.Each of the four charges carries a maximum fine of $1 million.

Thetrial, which started on April 24, is scheduled to resume on Tuesday morning. Two months have been set aside.

Bourqueis serving five life sentences with no chance of parole for 75 years after pleading guilty to three counts of first-degree murder and two counts of attempted murder.